Pure Rarity recently had the opportunity to have a chat with Jennifer Schneidereit and Phil Tossell, the founders of Nyamyam. The small company was formed last year with the aim to create beautifully crafted games. Below is our full transcript of the interview.

How did you guys get into video games?

Phil: For me it all started back when I was about five years old. My dad took me in to a store to look at this amazing new computer called the ZX Spectrum. We ended up walking out with one and a game called Horace Goes Skiiing. From that day on I was totally captivated by computer and video games. I tried putting together my own games using code listings in magazines but I have to say back then I was more interested in playing games than making them! It was only later on that I started to think that maybe I could make a viable career out of making games.

Jennifer: I got to play my first video game at a friend’s house when I was in elementary school. It was Pacman and got me instantly hooked. Soon after that my father bought an Atari 800 XL. It was meant for ‘work’ but my little brother and I used it in every free minute to play games. My father used to read computer magazines and occasionally they would come with tutorials on how to create simple video games. So my father, brother and I attempted to follow through with one of them. Even though we followed it to the letter, it would not work and the project didn’t succeed. I remember we were all really disappointed, but nevertheless the idea to make video games stuck with me.

Where did you start your careers as game developers?

Jennifer: My first job was with a Japanese game developer called Acquire. I went there straight after University and had a wonderful time working with them.

Phil: I graduated from University and applied straight away to work at Rare. I have to admit that I didn’t really fancy my chances of getting a job there, but as it turned out I somehow managed to. I still remember the day I received the acceptance letter from Rare as being one of the happiest days of my life.

What do you appreciate most about working in the gaming industry?

Phil: When it’s going well, it honestly doesn’t feel like work. Being able to do something you love and make a living out of it is very special and something that I never take for granted. What I really love most about video games is that they bring together art, design and software in a way that few other industries do. In so doing they throw up a constant stream of new and exciting problems that need to be solved. And problem solving is what really gets me up in the mornings.

Jennifer: Games are a wonderfully versatile medium to work with. As well as being fun, they allow to express ourselves, connect with other people and I believe can also carry deep meaning; the possibilities are endless. Doing what I am passionate about is a way of life, not work.

What was it like working at Rare in the beginning?

Jennifer: When I started at Rare I was almost immediately put on Kinect Sports. It was very exciting to work with a new and innovative technology such as Kinect. I was very fascinated with the skeletal tracking. Even though marketing has overused that phrase, it felt a little magical seeing the avatar mimic my movements. Because Rare was one of the first developers to work with this technology there were no example games to look at. We pretty much had to figure it out as we went along. I love this kind of challenge, as it is very rare to come by. It really pushes you out of your comfort zone and helps to improve and enhance ones skills and perspectives.

Phil: Amazing. Simply amazing. It was a dream come true for me. When I started, GoldenEye was just nearing completion and I remember sitting in the canteen and striking up a conversation with Chris Stamper and another guy called Mark Edmonds who was one of the key programmers on GoldenEye. It was such a fantastic feeling to be around such talented people. My overall initial impression was that there was such a family feeling to the place at that time. The company was housed in an old converted farmhouse which added to that feeling.

Don’t get me wrong, it was tough, really hard work and there were many days when I felt stretched beyond what I was capable of. Unlike nowadays where most people have very specialized roles, you were expected to be able to take on any programming challenge that was thrown at you.

I started as part of the Diddy Kong Racing team and on the first day the lead programmer just dumped all the giant N64 programming manuals on my desk and said ‘read these’. They were all translated from the original Japanese and not all that well translated either! It was really exciting and more than a little bit intimidating.

At that time teams were very much segregated from each other in individual ‘barns’ and never had much communication. Chris and Tim Stamper really encouraged competition between teams to try and spur them on to greater achievements.

Back in the days, how much insight did you have on the other teams’ projects?

Phil: Not a lot. Each team was in a separate barn and your access key was only enabled to work on your barn and the shared areas. The barn I was in had the Banjo team downstairs and the DKR team upstairs. Even though we shared a barn I couldn’t get in downstairs without being let in. Nobody ever stopped you going anywhere else, but you always got the impression that it was frowned upon.

In general everyone knew roughly what projects were in progress but had no idea what state they were in. Inevitably this always led to lots of rumors and speculation, which was fun!

What projects did you work on while there? What are you most proud of?

Jennifer: Since I only worked on one project with Rare, this one is easy to answer: Kinect Sports.

Phil: I started on Diddy Kong Racing for N64, doing some background programming tasks with tools and debugging. The next project I worked on was Dinosaur Planet which much later became Star Fox Adventures. Part way through this project I was promoted to Lead Programmer after the previous Lead Programmer shifted to another project. When I think about it now, I think they must have been crazy putting me in that position. Bear in mind I’d never finished a game at that point. It would be unheard of nowadays; you have to toil long and hard to work your way up the career ladded, but at that time it felt like anything was possible if you worked really hard. Tim and Chris really rewarded hard work.

After Star Fox I worked on Kameo, and after Kameo I worked on undisclosed prototypes for nearly three years. Then Kinect came along and I moved onto Kinect Sports. Around that time I was promoted to a companywide role as Director of Gameplay. It was a kind of bridging role between programming and design.

I think I will always be most proud of my work on Star Fox Adventures. The first game you make is always special and we really pushed the hardware with Star Fox. I still feel it stands out visually as one of the most beautiful games on the Gamecube. The other work I am most proud, the best work I think I’ve done up until now, is something that I’ve never been able to share with the world; it was a prototype we made straight after Kameo finished.

That’s interesting. Can’t you at least give us a hint?

Phil: Trust me I’d love to, but I still feel compelled to respect Rare’s confidentiality in the same way as I did when I was working at the company. What I can say is that coming off the back of Kameo, we were frustrated at having to make games that didn’t really match with the Xbox demographic, so we wanted to make something that pushed completely to the other end and was aimed squarely at the average Xbox player; both in terms of visuals and play style. Unfortunately, Microsoft felt that they already had plenty of games that catered to that audience.

What did you like most about working there?

Phil: Working with such an amazing talented bunch of people. There are so many people at Rare who aren’t known outside of Rare because they shy away from the publicity and I often feel it’s a shame. There’s too many to mention by name but one of my personal mentors was Mark Betteridge, an absolutely amazing programmer who took over running the company after the Stampers left. Mark spent a lot of time working with me on Star Fox and it was a pivotal point in my career. He taught me the importance of attention to detail and never being satisfied. I’ve never known anyone who had such an eye for the little things that make a game shine.

Aside from the people it was the trust and respect that was accorded to you and the decisions that you made.

Jennifer: By being part of Microsoft (Game) Studios you get a lot of free games, be it boxed or on XBLA. And who would not love free games?! But joking aside, being part of pioneering a new technology and of course meeting Phil and Ryo Agarie [also a member of Nyamyam] were the best parts.

Were there any downsides with working at Rare?

Jennifer: After living for four years in Tokyo, a big busy city, working in the middle of nowhere was quite the culture shock. Rare is surrounded by fields and trees with not even a bus stop in sight. In Tokyo I worked right next to the Akihabara train station. From electric city to being greeted by ducks and goose every morning, it could not have been a bigger difference.

Of course the scenery around Rare is very lovely and going for lunch break walks in the fields was very nice. But you still could not shake that feeling sometimes of being trapped in a bubble.

Phil: Not having any windows for the first two years I worked at the company! All we had was a little ventilation fan where you could see little bits of light through. We used to joke that in winter you never got to see daylight because it was dark when you got in during the morning and dark when you left late at night.

Really this is a bit of a story of two halves: up until Microsoft bought the company and even for a couple of years after, pretty much until the Stampers left, there weren’t really any downsides for me. Yes the hours were very long and it could be high pressure, and yes sometimes things could get a little too competitive between teams, but all in all it was a great environment where you could really do your best work. The Stampers very much believed in making it as easy as possible for you to just focus on work.

Once Microsoft bought the company things gradually started to change. Being part of a large publicly owned company immediately changed things: decisions are not your own anymore and can take a long time to reach consensus. You end up with a lot of bureaucratic red tape. I personally found it very frustrating and a lot of time was spent not focusing on making games, but trying to sell ideas to other people and convince them that it was the right way to go. It wasn’t helped by the fact that personnel within Microsoft changed frequently, and with that come changes in priorities, focus and belief patterns; it could be very exhausting. I think in all honesty we (meaning Rare) were just not equipped with the right set of skills to deal with it, and Microsoft for their part just didn’t know what to make of the way that we were used to doing things.

The worst period for me personally was the period after Kameo finished during which I worked on about six different prototypes over a period of three years before finally moving forward with Kinect Sports. In the end you have to wake up every morning and enjoy what you do, and the conclusion I came to was that big companies are just not for me.

Was it the right decision for Microsoft to cancel all those prototypes?

Phil: No, it wasn’t the right decision in my opinion. In the end the ex-Kameo team spent three years working on prototypes, during which time we could have happily released a very compelling game. But Microsoft’s decision making at that time was characterized by almost complete paralysis. Essentially, they didn’t really know what to do with us and so they more or less stalled until Kinect came along.

So all that changed once the work force focused on Kinect?

Phil: Absolutely. For the first time it felt like there was a really strong focus within MGS [Microsoft Game Studios] and that filtered down to us at Rare. It finally felt like everyone was pulling in the same direction.

What was it like starting at the company after all that restructuring?

Jennifer: It was a difficult situation. On the one hand you could sense that there was lingering resentment, particularly amongst the long term Rare employees, but on the other hand there was a sense of renewed optimism that things were going in a much more positive direction. There was actually quite an influx of new people around that time which contributed to that.

What made you eventually leave to start anew?

Phil: There were a number of factors: first and foremost was a driving ambition and passion to grow personally beyond where I had got to at Rare. I’d been a programmer in various flavours for twelve years and as much as I enjoyed it, I felt I was cornered into that position. When you’ve worked so long with the same people, in the same role, it becomes hard for them to see you in any other way and so I wanted to explore my own abilities I suppose.

Second was the desire to make a work place that was more in tune with my own personal beliefs. I wanted somewhere that actively encouraged personal growth and development that treated people fairly and equally.

Lastly, I felt that as I’d got older, that the games industry hadn’t grown with me. The kinds of experiences that I enjoyed when I was 25 are not the same ones that I enjoy now that I’m 35, and I felt that there were very few people really making those experiences for me. So that was a big spur for me to try and see if we can make those more mature, thought provoking experiences.

Jennifer: If you work for anyone else, you rarely get the freedom to make games that are anything but a ‘calculated’ financial hit. A lot of the games released nowadays are very safe, carbon copies of previously successful games. While I enjoy playing some of these games, they are not games that I want to create exclusively. I prefer to try and come up with something original or at least different. What else we can do with games, beyond what has been discovered yet?!

Please tell us the story behind Nyamyam. How did you come up with the idea?

Jennifer: Before Ryo, Phil and I met all three of us had dreamt about developing games on our own. I think we were all craving the freedom to create games that are off the beaten track; the freedom to explore and experiment with different concepts. This kind of freedom is hard to come by in the publisher dominated console market.

I think like a lot of developers we eyed the expanding iPhone App Store as a potential way for us to follow that dream, but there was a nagging doubt: the iPhone is dominated by quick-to-play-and-forget games and that wasn’t really the kind of game we wanted to make. So we watched and waited.

When the iPad came out in 2010, it wasn’t really on my radar, but Phil had already pre-ordered one and was incredibly excited about it. Because of the high demand the iPad would not arrive until two weeks after the official release date, so not wanting to wait, we went together to the Apple store to have a look. Needless to say we both ended up buying one! Pretty much instantly we felt that the iPad was a perfect opportunity for us. People generally use it more purposefully than their phones and are willing to dedicate longer periods of time to it; the usage pattern compared to the iPhone is really quite different.

At the time we were all still hard at work on Kinect Sports so we couldn’t do anything immediately, but in the fall Kinect Sports came to an end. We knew that the next game would be Kinect Sports 2, and while Kinect Sports is a nice game, there was really no challenge or excitement for us in making a sequel and potentially another after that. So we grabbed the opportunity, quit our jobs and set up office in my living room. Ryo had ongoing obligations with Rare and joined the following spring.

Does this mean we should expect a more in-depth game from you on the iPad?

Jennifer: For sure, especially compared to the majority of the mobile games. We are very much interested in exploring themes and content outside of what is nowadays expected from games.

The company name is rather original. What is the story behind it?

Phil: I’m not sure we should reveal the story behind the name just yet! We wanted a name that reflected what we wanted the company to be about; something fun, intriguing and a little different, that was almost a game in itself. We made lists and lists of possible names but nothing really stuck. In the end it was a bizarre kind of thing that led us to the name; Jennifer had always had this funny expression she would randomly use. I guess it came from the years when she lived and worked in Japan. In Japanese they have a lot of ‘sound’ words like ‘woof woof’, much more so than English. But what she used to say sounded like ‘nyamyam’. It’s not actually a word they use in Japan so I guess she made it up herself. After that we lived with the name for about a month to make sure we were totally happy with it, and by the end of the month we all still felt it was perfect.

After further research we also found that ‘nyam’ is a slang word in some countries to indicate something that is tasty which just seemed to further reinforce the idea.

Jennifer: The word really shines if you speak it with a high-pitched voice.

So the company name could actually be a hint about your first game?

Jennifer: Not strictly speaking. There are actually some hints on our website, but I guess it is difficult to spot them if you do not know what you are looking for.

How does working at Nyamyam differ from working at Rare?

Phil: In many respects for me it’s almost a return to how things used to be when I started at Rare: teams were really small, roles were far less focused and more flexible, decisions were quick to make. And I think that’s why you’re seeing so many seasoned developers jump at the chance to go down this route.

In the latter years at Rare the roles became very tightly focused as they always do with large teams and it felt difficult to really see the impact you were having on the game. It also felt like the disciplines (art, design and software) had really started to drift apart from each other.

At Nyamyam we don’t have any positions or titles. We are all Game Creators and are purely focused on making the best game we can through collaboration and pushing each other to new heights. We actively encourage each other to look outside of our core disciplines and learn about what the others are doing so that we can better understand how we can make things better. It’s very empowering and liberating.

As an example, in the past year I’ve learnt how to model and rig to a reasonable standard, something I’ve always wanted to do, and that has allowed me to see how I can make a better set of tools and workflow for Jennifer and Ryo.

Certainly there is a difference in manpower between the two. Does this limit the scope of your project?

Jennifer: Absolutely, yes. I always think of game development according to four aspects: quality, scope, time and cost. These four always play off each other and you have to find a balance.

I feel that quality is paramount for us, which is why we describe what we do as creating ‘beautifully crafted games’. We think this sums up the essence of what we are all about. Given how important quality is to us, and the fact that we don’t have a lot of resources to work with then obviously time and scope have to be flexible.

What can you tell us about your first game? What type of game is it?

Phil: We’re really excited about what we’re doing and are dying to share more information about it, but the time’s just not quite right yet. It’s still just a little too early. What we can say is that we’re making a game for the iPad. We chose to work on the iPad because we felt it was a good match for our skill set and we love to use the device ourselves. When I look around at the games on phones I always feel that it would be difficult to bring considerable knowledge and abilities and really make ourselves stand out. That market is all about quick, accessible, fun games. It was important to me that we create something really unique and distinctive, and also that cannot easily be copied by other people.

One thing we can say is that we are incredibly lucky and honored to have David Wise doing all of the music and sound effects for the game. Dave is insanely talented and he’s already written some fantastic tunes for the game that you’ll hear in the not too distant future.

Can’t you tell us anything? Just something to appease our curiosity.

Jennifer: Let’s just say that we all have a great love of all things Japanese… So we took that and combined it with a unique and interesting twist on the way the world is built and interacted with.

When should we expect more information on it?

Jennifer: Within the next 3 – 6 months, but we might let something slip on Twitter (@nyamyamgames) sooner. You never know…

When is it expected to get released?

Jennifer: To be honest this is a moving target for the reasons mentioned above. We are trying to do something that is really different and we are only a small team. Doing that whilst maintaining quality is really difficult and takes a lot of time and effort. We do set ourselves clear goals but we are very much from the old Rare way of thinking which was always ‘it will be done when it is done’.

All that being said we are still aiming to have it completed by the end of next year.

Sounds like a rather ambitious project to us.

Jennifer: Yes, it is quite ambitious. At times we think that we chose something a little bit too challenging for our first game! In order to realize the game idea, we had to create our own original tech and for a long time there was a big question mark over whether we would be able to pull it off. But we have the most difficult piece of tech done now and have proven to ourselves that we can technically realize the core game idea. Currently we are in the phase of experimenting with that technology and putting together a lot of prototypes to narrow down more closely where we are taking the game direction.

Any plans to expand your company?

Phil: Not immediately. When we set up Nyamyam, after coming from mainstream development we were tired of the way things were done; tired of sequels, franchises and inequality in the way people are treated and rewarded. So the philosophy behind Nyamyam is two-fold: freedom (creativity, financially and in terms of how and where we work) and equality. The most important of these is financial freedom, since without it the other things are impossible. So from the beginning we always knew that Nyamyam was going to work a little different.

Nyamyam is really more of a creative cooperative than a conventional company. By creative cooperative I mean that we are a group of self-funded individuals who are doing what we are doing because we are passionate about it. So in that sense, Nyamyam will expand if we can find like-minded people who have the financial freedom, passion and talent to join us.

What does the future hold for Nyamyam?

Jennifer: We are totally focused on our first game for the time being. Like most creative people we have a big bag of potential future ideas both in terms of future projects and future directions but we are very keen to keep focused on the present for the time being.

Good luck with you game! We are really looking forward to hearing more about it.